Scotties Toy Box

July 6, 2018

Sharia law in the U.S. pushed by… Republicans.

Thumbnail

40 Comments »

  1. This is not a true statement of all who vote Republican.

    Like

    Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 12:21

    • Hello Tracy. I disagree with you. While individual republicans may have differing views slightly, they vote as a party for the candidates that full fill the post. The people that vote for these republican candidates are responsible for the views of the party they voted for. So yes the meme is true. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 12:26

      • It’s actually just spreading propaganda, and fear. Both parties are guilty of it at times of course. I don’t like the party system at all, and much prefer to vote for individuals as individuals for what they believe in. Unfortunately our system isn’t designed to make that easy to do.

        Like

        Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 12:30

        • No Tracy it is not equal or equivalent. One party has called for those things listed, and it was not the democrats. I do not agree in anyway that “both parties are the same” as there are clear differences in what each party as a group supports. Hugs

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 14:14

  2. Who are you quoting that said “both parties are the same”? It surely wasn’t me.

    Like

    Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 14:26

    • Tracy, that is the idea / sentiment you were expressing. It plays a factor in every presidential election for at least the last 30 to 40 years I remember, but especially in the 2016 election. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 14:30

      • No, you took my saying both parties are guilty of spreading propaganda to mean both parties are the same. Not at all what I said!
        I find good and bad in both parties it’s hard to agree with everything either one is fighting for.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 14:33

        • OK, I will agree the common statement of both parties do it, is one used to mean that the parties are more alike than different. That is the common usage. So I may very well have taken you to mean something you did not mean. I find nothing good in the republican party right now.

          Let’s start with the meme I posted you disagree with. Tell me why you disagree that the republican party has not pushed for those things listed. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 14:37

        • Also Tracy please remember that the republican party is the party of tRump. It is the tRump republican party. He is the head of the party and every republican who has dared challenge him has been removed from office. The ones in congress now are too scared of the base to stand up to tRump, which makes it his party, lock, stock, and barrel. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 14:39

  3. I do not see that list being pushed the way you do. I know you are very much against Trump, and put your trust in different news outlets than I do. I honestly don’t follow politics much. I am drawn into some political discussion with my husband who follows it more closely and keeps me informed of some of the issues being debated.
    I believe if you took a poll of Republican voters you would find we are not supportive of that meme. You might interpret Republican ideals as supporting that list though.

    Like

    Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 14:50

    • Tracy I follow politics greatly. The republican party is now owned by tRump and his base. That base wants the things listed. Trust me as a gay man the republican party since the 1970’s has been a growing threat to me and my equal rights. In the last 20 years it has gotten almost rabid. Do you not remember the “moral majority” that tried to push religious legislation on the country? They supported and because a huge part of the republican party. You admit as a religious person you listen to mostly one point of view. Republican voters put the current highly evangelical , rights restricting, science denying, equal rights restricting, creationism teaching in public schools, and restricting females rights to their bodies /sexuallity republican majorites in congress and the white house. Do we really need to go over every line of that list, because I can give you the republican leaders by name who have pushed for each of those things. In fact you have to admit you have heard those things discussed in your church and your watched news shows. Tell me you can disagree with anyone of those things listed, and please give me the examples of republicans in congress who have argued publicly against anyone of them. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 15:00

      • Not a religious person, and don’t go to church. I used to belong several years ago and I hate religion now.
        I just wanted to make the point that lumping people into groups, and giving titles to them is dangerous and leads to groups fighting each other rather than working together.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 15:06

        • Your profile still lists you as “god trusting…”. You might want to change that. It equals religious. No Tracy that is not what you said in your first comment. You wrote

          This is not a true statement of all who vote Republican.

          As I pointed out yes these people elected the current crop of republican leaders and have so back for 40 years. The party has been getting more and more religious driven and more restrictive. This is the party of the cult of tRump. Anyone who claims different needs to talk to Senator Bob Corker, who is leaving the senate because it is a party he can no longer support. There are others also who have spoken out and lost their seats. Those are facts. SO the people voting these republicans into office must hold the same views or these people wouldn’t get elected. Lumping people into groups is fine if those people fit the groups, and the republican party as it is today fits the meme I posted very well. Groups need to oppose and fight each other when these types of issues are in question. I push for people to fight as hard as they can to fight back against these regressive republicans and create a fair progressive society. You never answered the question I asked of you. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 15:36

          • After seeing how difficult it was for my husband to make changes to his WordPress page I haven’t had the desire to go through that much trouble. I’ve made some of the easier changes to show my views have been changing. It’s not like I have a huge following or blog about many important issues…it just hasn’t been worth my time.

            Liked by 1 person

            Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 15:42

            • A well it is easy really. You do not need to change your wordpress page as your profile is on Gravatar. Here is the link. http://en.gravatar.com/tracysearles
              Sign in and edit your profile. Then go to your blog, and up in the left hand corner go to “my sites”, then “WP admin”, then to “pages” , then to “all pages”. At that point chose the “about page” and edit it. Easy. Glad I could help. Hugs

              Like

              Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 15:49

              • I’m guessing my link showing seekinghisplanforme as my site is the most religious sounding. Unfortunately since I use the free service I can’t change that. I was just curious to what I had listed on my about page, since I haven’t looked at it in a long time…my link showed me a blank page. I assumed it had been deleted rather than updated/edited the last time I looked at it.
                I will try it with your suggestions. Thanks

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 15:54

              • I was able to delete that old profile. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 16:00

        • If you so not support the values of the republican party in power, then you need to change and become a democrat and vote accordingly to get the republicans out of power. If not, you support them and what they are doing. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 15:37

          • I was completely disgusted by Hillary Clinton and could never have voted for her. Trump was not my first choice, but the lesser of two evils.

            Like

            Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 15:50

            • If you did not vote for Hillary you voted for tRump. Period. You helped elect him,. Yes you helped elect a monster. Look, how you voted in the primaries is one thing. However in the general election only one of two people will win. One of those two will be president. If you did not vote for, did not choose Hillary, you effectively voted for tRump. There is no way knowing what each candidate was saying you could have not found Hillary a better president for this country than a narcissistic misogynist sexual assaulter who was linked to the mob in both Russia and the U.S. , and who displayed every horrible not qualified to be president of any candidate who ever ran. How the hell can you say tRump was the lesser of two evils? He was the worst of the two. He was clearly a failed business man and a moron. He openly mocked reporters, anyone who disagreed with him, he promoted punching anyone who disagreed with him , and it was clearly reported in major newspapers how crooked his foundation was, not to mention he was lying his ass off. Openly lying.

              Would you have said he was a good role model for your son? Well you could have said Hillary was a good role model for your daughter.

              Hillary had none of these faults. You know that. If you watched anything but fox news or read a single not far wing news site you would have known these facts. Can you really tell me you thought Hillary was running a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza joint that had NO BASEMENT? That was the crap being spread about her on all the right wing sites and fox news. She never committed a crime, she never sold uranium to Russia, she never did pay to play ( which tRump is doing big time right now ) the Clinton foundation was and is squeaky clean and high rated. Don’t’ give me that shit that tRump was the less of the two.

              Now this is totally different than your original statement and I assume you now with draw your original statement about the meme. Hugs

              Like

              Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:03

              • Nope, don’t withdraw my original statement.
                Hillary absolutely is a terrible role model for anyone.
                Trump can be a jackass, but he would still be my choice over her.

                Like

                Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 16:10

                • THen you are uneducated. OK to the first statement. I asked you

                  Tell me you can disagree with anyone of those things listed, and please give me the examples of republicans in congress who have argued publicly against anyone of them.

                  Now I want you to detail for me how Hillary , a former first lady who never went bankrupt, never screwed contractors out of monies owed them, never was accused or known to hang out with mobsters, who worked for childrens causes all her adult life, how is this great lady not a role model and worse than tRump? Hugs

                  Like

                  Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:21

                  • Yeah, you won’t get what you want from me. I don’t care that much or have that much time to do so when it wouldn’t be life changing for anyone.
                    This platform isn’t the way to fight the issues of our government.

                    Like

                    Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 16:25

                    • Tracy don’t you see. I am trying to help educate you because you really are misinformed. But by saying you don’t even care you then forfeit the right to disagree with something you know nothing about. If you wish to stay misinformed I can not help you. I would say come back when you wish to learn the truth about what you were told.

                      This platform is the perfect place to discuss and learn the issues. If you want to do the effort., You can not simply drop an opinion with nothing to substantiate it and think it means anything. It doesn’t.

                      Our government is us. We the people. “An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people.” While the quote is attributed to Jefferson it is not really know if he wrote it. However it is really true.

                      Hugs

                      Like

                      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:39

              • I don’t know why you bother to keep commenting. I doubt anyone reading your site cares about my opinion. I am just have a lazy day after a busy week, and have the time to respond. I’m not trying to change your mind on your views. I am way too lazy to do the research to justify why I disagree with the meme. I just know personally I voted Republican and don’t agree with Sharia law.

                Like

                Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 16:17

                • First your on my blog, it is courtesy to respond to a comment. Second I am trying to show you how uneducated you sound, how misinformed you really are. IF you don’t care to learn the truth then don’t keep commenting. You are wrong, it is clearly shown you are wrong, my viewers see you are wrong, but I care about the truth. You are correct, you are too lazy and apparently not reasonable enough to learn. You feel it so you say it. That is ignorance. If you are happy being ignorant then you prove my point about the republican party. Thank you. You don’t even know what Sharia law is do you? Admit that. Then maybe I can show you how you are wrong. Hugs

                  Liked by 1 person

                  Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:25

  4. Before this gets way out of hand, I want to remind anyone reading this or responding to it to remain civil. We are all entitled to our opinions and we will not always be able to agree on everything. One’s views are not always another’s. I will also let you all know that Tracy is my wife and I will not tolerate anyone being disrespectful to her regardless of whether you agree or disagree. Politics is a hot button issue and people get riled up over it. But respect each other and remember that each and every one of us is entitled to their opinion. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but keep it civil.

    I will also put my two cents in and say that a lot of people ( not necessarily me) vote Republican based solely on economic views and not on social issues. People may overlook insensitivity in order to get more money in their pocket. Several voters have stated as much post election. So yes I agree with my wife that not all Republicans are like the meme list. Some of course are. Some people just want to get all they can get for themselves and don’t think about the people who don’t benefit from it. People vote ( Democrat or Republican) based on what benefits them. Not everyone will get out of it what someone else will. That doesn’t make it right, it’s just the reality of politics. It’s a ” what’ll you do for me” mentality. And that’s too bad .

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by Ben — July 7, 2018 @ 16:21

    • Ben I respect you but she just wrote

      I am way too lazy to do the research to justify why I disagree with the meme. I just know personally I voted Republican and don’t agree with Sharia law.

      So how can she drop an opinion on something she knows nothing about, and not expect push back.   
      

      I was willing to go over every point in detail with her, but she doesn’t care. She makes an inflammatory statement with nothing to back it up. That is trollish.

      Notice on stuff about her page I tried to help her, and I did.

      Anyone who voted for the current president or continues to support the republicans is part of his party. He runs it, leads it, and anyone who disagrees with him is kicked out of their elected positions. So he is the party. The party is a cult of tRump and has his values. Now an individual who doesn’t have those values can not call themselves a republican.

      I understand your point of what is in it for me. Well that doesn’t matter. Even if you are in it just for an extra tax break, if you support the republican party you support their entire agenda, no matter if you believe it or not. It is not enough to say well I am a fiscal conservative but I don’t’ believe what the republicans do , but I vote for them anyway.

      Be well. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:33

      • Scottie, I’ve just been an “interested” bystander in this conversation … but I have to agree with Ben. You’re letting your emotions get the best of you and are writing things in an “attack” mode. Take a break. Take a walk. Drink a cool drink.

        Always remember … there are scores of people who will not agree with your perspective. And that’s O.K. We are all individuals with our own personal histories. State your case … and let them state theirs. Then let it go. Politics is already a sticky subject … don’t make it any worse than it is.

        Liked by 2 people

        Comment by Nan — July 7, 2018 @ 16:38

        • I understand. I did get angry and still am . To say you disagree and then say you can not be bothered to even find out why you disagree, you are too lazy to even find out if you know what you are talking about is true. That angers me. Why come flat out tell me I am wrong when you don’t care if I am wrong or not. That is trolling.

          I did go on the attack, I asked Tracy to provide me with evidence of what she was saying. How was Hillary the worst of the two? How was the meme wrong? How was Hillary not a good role model? She flat out did not care. She refused to even try to backup her claim.

          I guess I could have just laughed it off. But that tatic is insulting to me. I can be wrong, I am and have been before. But if I am then just show me. Lets talk pout the points. Don’t just claim I am wrong and then say you don’t’ care to know why I am right or wrong.

          Thanks Nan. I know you see what I don’t. I know I can get deep into a subject I care about. I still think I have a right to ask for people who tell me I am wrong to show it to me, but I should have ended the conversation much earlier than it did. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:47

        • Nan again I thank you for “the splash of cool water” but I take the republican party , this administration, and what they are doing to dismantle my life very personally. The things being pushed by the sharia republican party will destroy what I have. My marriage will either be gone or mean nothing. My equal rights will be gone and I will be lucky to be just a second class citizen. Given the republicans push to get rid of any anti discrimination laws I can only think they want to drive all us gay people back into hiding so they can claim we don’t really exist. I have lost jobs, promotions, been denied housing as an openly gay man. it took years to get covered under my husbands health insurance even when they covered unmarried opposite couples. So I do take what the republicans and their supporters are trying to do as a personal attack. It does trigger a fight response in me. I imagine anyone would work as hard and passionately to protect themselves as I tend to do. Thanks again for a level head. Hugs

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 17:06

  5. Thanks baby. I know people take what I say or how I word things poorly. I take as much blame for that as I put on the other people involved.

    I am done with this particular post.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Tracy — July 7, 2018 @ 16:30

    • Goodby Tracy. In case you are wondering. Sharia law simply means religious law. Laws formed from religious texts or teachings. The meme was correct. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 16:40

  6. Scottie, I am going to say my piece and then move on from this conversation. You don’t need to respond. I believe you missed the point of my wife’s original statement. This is what she said:

    “This is not a true statement of all who vote Republican.”

    You disagreed with that. But she was right and do you know how I know? Because in the last election, she voted Republican…and she does NOT believe in the things listed in that meme. I do NOT support those things either, but I voted against Hillary as well. That was it. When she said she was too lazy to research all of the reasons why she disagreed with some of your statements, what she was saying was “I already said all I wanted to say and I don’t want to get into a huge political debate.” She doesn’t know a whole lot about politics. I don’t know it all either, but I do follow it. But you don’t need to know it all to know how you feel personally and you don’t need to eat, sleep and dream politics to be a good judge of character. (Not that Trump or Clinton were shining examples of good character) That was the point. Not all Republicans in office want a theocracy. Not all who vote Republican want that either. To say that all Republicans feel that way is a huge generalization and stereotypes are always something we should avoid. She and I both voted Republican because that’s where we were at that time in our lives. But even then, we did not support all of what was listed in that photo. That was her point. Avoid lumping everyone in together. That goes for politics as well as anything else in life. ‘Guilty by association” is unfair.

    Not all Republicans support Trump as a person. I don’t consider myself Republican anymore, but I certainly don’t think he’s a decent human being. But Republicans support a Republican agenda and want conservative policies in place. Just like Democrats support Democratic policies. Not all Democrats are far-left and not all Republicans are far right. There are a lot of moderates on both sides that would be a good fit for a huge section of our population. Unfortunately moderates fly under the radar all too often. Some of what Trump has done in his time in office has helped our economy, yet people tend to overlook that because he’s a scumbag. He’s not a decent person (I get that) but that doesn’t mean he’s bad at everything he does 24/7. No one is. Again, that’s a generalization. Being a good person, however, is not a prerequisite for being president in this country. Some people like his policies but wouldn’t want to be around him in a personal setting. Remember Bill Clinton? He is often regarded as one of our better presidents. This country was in pretty good shape while he was in office. But then he was impeached. Why? He had an affair, covered it up and lied to the American people. Why did he remain in office? Because not one single Democrat voted to impeach. Does that mean we can make the statement “Democrats support extra-marital affairs, cover-ups, lying and attacking the creditability of women”? Of course not. I’m sure many Democrats were disgusted by his actions, but wanted his policies to go forward. Parties protect their own. They always have.

    Maxine Waters urged supporters to go out and harass Trump supporters while they are out in public. At restaurants, shopping at stores, or wherever. Is harassment a value Democrats hold dear? Not likely. The anti-Trump sentiment in this country is so strong however, that we forget sometimes to act like decent human beings toward each other. We will never all agree all the time. It’s simply not possible. That doesn’t mean we need to be enemies and always say, ” it’s all the other side’s fault all the time.” Both sides do it and it gets us nowhere.

    This is all beside the point. The whole point my wife was making was not all people are the same. Not all Republicans are the same and not all Democrats are the same. Voting someone into office does carry a lot of baggage. No candidate is free from skeletons in their closets and no one is a saint. But who you vote for doesn’t define you as a person. You vote based on who best represents your values, not someone who is a mirror image of who you are. Those people do not exist. If I recall, you posted a meme a while back stating that people need to vote democrat at all costs. Even if the candidate “doesn’t excite you, isn’t 100% ideologically pure, have made mistakes in their lives, and have ideas you may not be comfortable with”…vote them in simply to stop the GOP. Is that not what a lot of Trump voters did to stop democrats and put back what people felt Obama took away? Many voters don’t like Trump. He’s made mistakes and he had ideas they weren’t comfortable with. But they voted him in at all costs. Do you see my point? This is what is called a double-standard. Voting based on party lines is not the right thing to do, just to stop the other side. Voting based on someone’s character is always the way to go And yes Hillary had some huge character issues too, but getting into that is not something I am at all interested in doing. I don’t know of any other election where both candidates were disliked as much as these two.

    I know politics is near and dear to you and fighting for your rights is huge. It should be. Don’t stop fighting for equality for all people. We shouldn’t have to fight for gay rights or women’s rights. We shouldn’t have to fight for kids to be taken care of. We should all have human rights, regardless of who you are and what you believe. We should never have had to fight to be treated like a person. But understand that what is so very important to you may not be what is important to someone else. And, what’s important to them may not be important to you. We are all different and all entitled to our beliefs. Agreeing all the time won’t happen, but fighting all the time doesn’t solve problems. Butting heads between parties just leaves us with a bunch of buttheads and that’s not going to bring us any closer together.

    That’s it. I’ve said what I needed to say and I’m moving on. No hard feelings. No grudges. We just all need to remember that we are different. Not one better than the other. Not one right all the time and the other wrong all the time. Just different. Take care.

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by Ben — July 7, 2018 @ 19:30

    • Hello Ben, you said I do not need to answer , but I want to.

      On not all republicans feeling like the party positions. Ben those positions are not new. They have been progressing on a more strident course for over 30 to 40 years. Think of the platforms of Reagan , Bush 1, Bush 2 , Now tRump. They didn’t just take a sudden hard right hook. I have already mentioned the moral majority, but I could talk about Tony Perkins, Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson. All pushing for a sharia law system with christianity being the base for those laws. They managed to get so deep in the republican party that now in both state and federal government the candidate must swear allegiance to those ideas or not get elected. Look how hard the ACA was fought for simply requiring the right to female birth control and it was contested on religious grounds.

      As far as not all republicans support the party line…, no sorry I don’t agree. Yes everyone can change their minds and positions. But I keep hearing people say “when will the good republicans stand up and challenge what is happening”? What good republicans? The fact is the ones that are standing up are not “republicans” anymore. Republicans are the ones you read about and see every day as exemplified by this administration and fox news. Everyone from George Will to Billy Crystal admits the republican party has changed. Steve Schmidt is one of the latest lifelong republicans to leave the party saying the party has changed and is not the republican party of the past. These lifelong republican operatives have said the party left them, it changed, and they can no longer support it. I can respect that. To deny what the republican party is and stand for today is to deny reality. This is a very dangerous republican party and anyone who supports it is supporting their agenda. IN the future it will be asked how did people stand by and allow these things to happen, just as they have with the things that happened in Nazi Germany. The problem is the republicans in office and the base that supports them.

      You say not all republicans want a theocracy. By the constitution there is not to be a religious test for office. Name one republican who has gotten elected in 40 years without proclaiming a love of the christian god. See as long as they are part of an organization that supports, endorses, pushes a religious stance in the laws, has to have the approval of major church organizations to get elected, all without standing up and saying “no I won’t do it nor will I agree to it”, then they are also supporting a theocracy. The president and vice president have appeared with far right preachers on stage who endorse and preach for the killing of gay people. They praised that man and were presided by him. Those are the leaders of the republican party. If you support that party , then you are support that platform.

      Guilty by association is unfair has a point.
      But not at the national party level. I am sure that that you may have been as offended as I was when tRump said of the Nazi march in Charlottesville that there was good on both sides. No there is not. If you are a race bigot , white supremist thug, no you are not good. I can easily stand up and say if you want to be called good, get out of the Nazi camp.

      The economy is not really doing well Ben. In fact it has contracted greatly since the new administration. Yes it coasted for a while , but compared to the last year of Obama and the first year of tRump it has not made as many jobs and it has slowed down in growth. The new trade war is having a real effect , and the tax cut only gave a temporary relief while the next tax bill in January will jump for the lower and middle incomes. Now with not for profit’s being taxed 21 percent on employee benefits in the new tax bill, families like mine that work for a major nonprofit hospital are really going to be in a bind. No the economic news is not good, and it is getting worse, but I will give tRump credit for it when his tariff war manges to crash the economy and cause the dollar to no longer be the world currency. I do hope China doesn’t get so upset with us they start calling in all the debt we owe them.

      Ben my husband was tRump’s butler at Mar-a-largo. tRump is a bad person with no redeeming features. Sorry he is mob connected and has been since the beginning of his casino days. There is more I could say but I will refrain, except to say he really is a moron and that what negative things have been said about him are true.

      Bill Clinton should never have been impeached. He lied about a consensual adult affair. The investigation that produced the information was on a legal land deal, but for three years the partisan special prosecutor kept digging until he got to that one point. The fact is Bill Clinton lied about getting a blow job from a consenting adult while in office. That really should have been between him and his wife. But tell me if held to that standard how many office holders in the republican party would survive? Why according to that standard is tRump getting a pass from the very same people who went after Clinton? The key difference here is adult and consenting. I disagree with your assessment on how many democrats were upset with his getting a consensual blow job, most of them were jealous I would think. The point is no crime happened until the man had to in public try to keep a legal act from his wife and family. Again should never risen to the impeachment level but it was totally political driven by the republican party. The moral party.

      Yes I agree with Maxine Waters. She did not call for harming anyone. She was clear about that. In a time when horrible acts are committed by an administration and being lied about, the people must rise up and confront them. When the president feel he can call out and insult anyone he wishes, when the republican media arm called fox news attacks and drives its followers to a frenzy to harass the democrats and their supports, yes I feel it is ok to respond in kind. It is one of the few ways the people have to make themselves known. Ben you seem to think this is something new. Sorry but the hard right has been doing this for years. Hey remember the out cry over Sarah Huckabee Sanders and the Red Hen restaurant. Oh the out cry over her being asked to leave and her appetizers being not charged her. Any complains raised on fox news about the poop being thrown at the building by tRump supporters, MAGA hat wears who blocked the restaurant for days and shut them down. The death threats against the owner and staff? I seen video of the protesters supporting poor Sanders, and they were not being nice, but no outcry for them to be civil. See for far too long the Tea Party got to call Obama every name in the book, raise heck unchecked, republicans called for actions to stop progressive movements and events. I just posted on a gun wielding tRump supporter who interrupted a prayer at an immigration protest and caused a huge problem. No calls from republican groups for him to have been civil. It really has been one sided.

      The problem is the right has been getting away with it for years. But the left was supposed to not do such things, got called out for it if they tried. Sorry time has come to level the playing field. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. When it comes down in history we will want to see people protesting the actions of this government and showing we stood up to and did not support the actions of those in it. Think about it, the government tried to charge a lady who laughed at Jeff Sessions with a crime, twice. They finally had to dismiss charges against the protesters in NY that were arrested illegally because out of the hundreds they couldn’t get convictions. The police even arrested reporters. No the left has to stand up and counter what has been done to us by the right. The idea of both sides doing it may not be the best but it beats being the only side noto to do it and getting shit on by the side that does all the time.

      Again if you support a group that is committed to an action , you support the action of that group. If you can not support the actions of the group then get out of the group. Now clearly I am not talking minor groups like car clubs or the local sewing circle. But if you are a member of the Aryan Race or support them, yes you are a bigot white supremacist. Same with white nationalist, that is simply a name change from white supremist.

      Everyone knows by now what the goals of each party are. They know what the parties stand for. They know what the parties will try to do when in office. If you support either party you are responsible for what they do. I support the democratic party and if they were in charge and I continue to support them I would be responsible for their actions. Same with the current republican party. Where are the leaders in congress standing up and saying no to tRump and crew? Where are all the republicans when asked about stuff being done who say no it is wrong and tell them publicly so. Those people lost their primaries, or simply are retiring. The rest are scared of a base that supports those actions. That is the whole point.

      No candidate is free from skeletons in their closets and no one is a saint. But who you vote for doesn’t define you as a person. You vote based on who best represents your values, not someone who is a mirror image of who you are.

      This I agree with. But what I am saying is if you belong to the vegan club, support the vegan club, you don’t get to be the meat eater of the group. I can not be a democrat and not support the positions of the party. If the party gets into power and does go off the rails, I will have to stop being a democrat and denounce their positions. If the party started to support things I can not , I would have to stop being a member and supporting the party. But I can not be a democrat and say I don’t support the party’s platform.

      Yes I do call for voting democrat even if they are not as progressive as I or others may want. That is because the party is not as progressive as I would wish they were, and they also have a more wider torrance than the republicans do. The democratic party allowed for anti choice candidates even though the main party goal is pro choice. The republican party will never allow a pro choice candidate. The republicans are much more narrow and strict, they are not big tent. So while I can say vote for a democrat even if they are not everything you want, the republicans can not and never will say that. Plus there are a few democrats that are so republican lite I couldn’t vote for them nor support them. Joe Manchin for example. He is simply a republican and votes it.

      But I am curious, just what did Obama take away? The lack of health care? Civil rights? No the only thing he took away was a white man being in the white house. He also tried to limit damage to the environment we need to live. He got the country out of a worldwide depression without any support from the republican party. But he doesn’t get credit for that. But the backlash from a black man being president gave us tRump supporters. Heck Steve Bannon admitted it was all about the white man’s hurt feelings. So please what did Obama take away?

      The difference with voting party line was clearly shown in Alabama with Roy Moore. I did not say vote for a democrat no matter what slime they are. I said vote for them even if they are not 100% perfect… You show me a pedophile racist democrat and I will campaign against them. Republicans voted for him.

      I vote democrat while always wishing they were more progressive. I an not interested in republican lite. I am not supportive of corporate democrats. I am actively trying to change the democratic party into something better than it is. That said if the candidate of the party crosses a line I won’t support them and if the party does I won’t support the party. That is why I say if you support what your party is doing while it is in charge, you are as responsible as the ones doing it. If the republicans don’t agree with what is going on they need to stand up and proclaim so. I would admire them. But they don’t. Those that do leave the party or say it is now the party of tRump.

      Ben this is the point,

      We shouldn’t have to fight for gay rights or women’s rights. We shouldn’t have to fight for kids to be taken care of. We should all have human rights, regardless of who you are and what you believe. We should never have had to fight to be treated like a person.

      If you believe that you can not support a party that fights against those things. If you so support the party that does those things you are making a lie of your statement. That is the entire point I was making. The republican party supports taking those things away from people as the meme stated. If you agree with that party you agree with what they are doing. IN My Opinion.

      I agree people are different, I agree we are entitled to our beliefs. I disagree strongly with not fighting for them. I also agree we must try to do so within the limits of a civil society, but again what one side gets to do for ten years or more the other had better learn to do.

      I am willing to talk with others, learn from others, but I won’t deny what is true and real because others don’t want it to be or ar misinformed. If someone states a falsehood I feel it is ok to correct that. If someone is misinformed I see no reason not to show them the truth or to dig into the facts with them. Why let lies from corrupt media become reality just because we don’t stand up to it. It is like the constant claim this is country was founded as a christian nation. That is an outright lie that keeps getting debunked and has to be refuted every time it is claimed. So when I get told republican talking points that are not true, tRump lies and distortions, fox news fake stuff, I do think it is important to push back.

      No hard feelings and no grudges. I support the others right to be different as long as they are not trying to take away mine. I don’t expect anyone to bow to me but I sure won’t to anyone else. I have fought to hard and too long. I am not always right, in fact I do make mistakes and have gotten facts wrong. Learning is a constant process. But as I expect myself to learn from my mistakes and when I an proven wrong, I also expect it of others.

      You both be well, and best wishes. It is late and I need to go to bed. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 7, 2018 @ 21:37

      • Scottie, it is becoming clear that we do not see eye to eye on political matters and that’s fine. This is why so many people choose to not discuss politics. It creates friction and it doesn’t usually end well. My Dad always said “never discuss how much money you make and never tell anyone who you voted for.” I can see his reason for saying that now.

        I have shifted my political position over the last year or so as my eyes have become more open since leaving religion. I used to be center-right for most issues and I’ve shifted more center and, on some issues, even left of center. I just feel that some your views are far too extreme and against my own core values to discuss politics any further. I will not answer any more questions that are political in nature. I will not allow my calm nature and friendly disposition to change by arguing over politics. It simply is not worth my time and it’s not productive for anyone involved. I am always open for a friendly debate, but this is not a debate. This is one side coming out swinging and the other having to fight their way back off the ropes. Debates can be healthy and a lot of good can come from them. Debates are only productive however, when you can push aside preconceived notions for a minute and listen to the other side. Really listen. If someone just keeps telling another person that they are wrong, that they support all the bad things a candidate does or says because of a vote and that they are the problem and should be condemned, why would they want to have a discussion? Opposition is okay. Having different views is perfectly fine. It is healthy because it can open up some much needed dialogue. Shaming and spewing venom is not healthy or productive.

        I do understand your struggle and how long you’ve fought for equality. But I do not think it’s ever okay to confront people in their private lives just to harass them. Fighting for rights is one thing, but condoning harassment in any form is quite another. No matter what a person’s beliefs are, no one deserves to be attacked, berated or humiliated. No one (and I would assume you would feel this way too if you were on the receiving end) wants anyone to interrupt their private meal, family outing or a shopping trip to attack them verbally or otherwise. Combatting hate with more hate is never a good strategy. Never. When one is filled with hate and rage at another person or group, all too often they become like that which they oppose. When people feel oppressed or discriminated against, they oftentimes lash out in similar fashion at those who they feel were to blame. Hate breeds hate and we all need to be better than that. I know you’ve fought hard for your rights and I applaud that. But we need to be careful because too often the bullied becomes the bully and that’s not justice. Nothing good comes from attacking your opponent with hate in your eyes. There are no winners.

        I will leave it at that. I wish you well and I really do hope that you get all you want out of life. Please do not allow yourself to become that which you despise and do not allow your pain and your frustration to cloud your better judgment. Take care.

        Liked by 3 people

        Comment by Ben — July 7, 2018 @ 23:28

        • Good morning Ben. I think we are really closer politically than you think. I use to take the high road also. I use to feel like you. Then I got tired of being the one stepped on all the time. Why was it OK for the other side to do what they did yet I had to temper my response.

          You feel I am swinging and you are fighting off the ropes. I am sorry you see it that way. That was not my intent to force you into a corner against your own beliefs. My point is you can not say you dislike what group A is doing and hold the moral high ground while still supporting group A. Can not call for a stop to painting things red while making the red paint. This is not about past votes or a one time vote. This is about the parties as they are now and have been for the last few years. The shift in the republican party has been known for a long time, but it really went in high gear I would say during the Obama years. The 2016 election was very clear where the local , state , and federal republican party stood. The stand for racism, for denying rights, for making females second class people, for making the government a theocracy, for destroying education, defunding and not supporting education, and so on. The candidates make these things clear in their campaigns and their actions. One of the persons being considered for nomination to SCOTUS is a woman who due to religious beliefs publicly states she must be subservient to males. How can she then be called to judge them? It makes no sense.

          I think the problem is in the because of a vote statement. The vote is an endorsement. It is one thing to say I endorsed party X and now I do not. It is another to say party X is bad and yet I still support them.

          Right now supporting the republican party is wrong. The actions of this cult of tRump are destroying the rule of law and the foundations of the country. If this were the democrats doing this I would say the same about them. History will not judge this time in our country well. It did not judge 1930’s Germany well either.

          On the protesting and harassment of public figures I would normally agree. In fact I am more restrained in my view than some on the left. I do not support the regressive left any more than I do the regressive right. I am a big support of free speach, and do not beleive in hate speech laws or hate crime laws. Lets hear what stupid horrible stuff people say so we can fight it. It is not a worse crime to assault me for red hair or assault while calling me gay. It is still assault.

          Here Is my view. Not everyone in the administration and clearly not those in non leadership positions should be confronted in their off working hours. The average worker has nothing to do with this situation and no control over it. These public confrontations are reserved for especially important events lead by the leaders making the decision to do those acts. There Is no other way to reach the secretary of homeland security who after weeks of protest over an immigration policy she is implementing against people on the Mexican border goes publicly to a Mexican restaurant. Yes people needed to make it very clear to her they did not support the actions she was taking. People who make horrible policies that harm others do not get to then be comfortable and happy as if they did not do the acts. Again these actions are not undertaken for every small policy change. But yes it is necessary to do whatever possible when kids are snatched from their parents at the border and taken sent away without even a thought to how they will be reunited. These confrontations are happening because the tRump administration won’t listen, won’t change, doesn’t care. The attempt is to make them care.

          No one deserves to be mistreated or humilated is nice but I have been on the receiving end. Undeserved. The point is these people are deserving of this tatic. IF it is OK for bakeries to refuse service to gay people, for pizza shops to refuse service to gay people , for a hardware store to put up signs saying “No gays allowed” then it’s perfectly OK for the Red Hen to say to Sarah Huckabee Sanders that they don’t want to serve her. They are not doing this to the white house mail people or the behind the wall people. She is an obnoxious in your face rude spokesperson for the administration and she has a choice to do what she does as she does it. However the actions of the tRump supporters against the rights of the owner and the building have been even more awful, yet where is the out cry on the right for their side to stop. If the left had throw buckets of poop at the hardware store and blocked the ene=try of the building for even a day they would have been arrested and the outcry would have risen to the heavens. Again I feel it really is a double standard.

          See it drives me nuts Ben when people have two standards of conduct. It is OK when group A does it but not group B. The fact is right now the left is fighting fire with fire. I would rather there was another way but there is not. For years we tried to get the other side to be more responsible and civil. It didn’t work. They call it unilateral disarmament. One side gives up the rights and the other doesn’t. That has not worked. Asking someone to stop punching you rarely works, but punching them back just as hard gets their attention.

          You have some good points on this subject. It has been a debate that has gotten a lot of time in different blogs I go to. Should we be militant, should we try for the center or push for the left, should we be meek and make no waves. Don’t alarm people.

          The thing to remember is we are not saying attack or harass just everyone and I do not support that. I don’t even support public harassment of non-senior officials. But yes I would support a vocal protest against Jeff Sessions in a restaurant, or outside a store. Kirstjen M. Nielsen need to feel the push back as she comfortably dined while kids cried for their mothers and fathers wept because they had no idea what was happening to their kids.

          I think the difference is the scale and reason for such actions. The right has made it their daily job to harass anyone they disagree with in any manner. The left is targeting the ones responsible for policy and implementation of policy.

          Remember the elected officials are not responding to the electorate any more. I write letters to my congresspersons and get no responses. You go to their offices and just try to sit there a while. They will kick you out. They won’t hear any disagreement with them. You can not be heard. So this is maybe the only way the people can be heard is to make some of these people uncomfortable and maybe they will reflect on their own actions.

          So to an extent I can see your point and agree with it. But you want a blanket statement of no we won’t or don’t, and that is not reasonable when the other side does and will.

          Ben I don’t mind talking about any issues,and there are cases where I am wrong. I think most of what we have disagreement about is degree , not about goals. I will read the two letters again later to see if I misread anything. I think I responded properly to you, I know I had no malice. Be well. Hugs

          Like

          Comment by Scottie — July 8, 2018 @ 06:06

          • Again Scottie, I think I’m done discussing politics. Not just with you but in general. I can discuss individual issues as things come up but I will not be discussing Republican this or Democrat that. Issues have no party affiliation so that is what I will talk about.

            I see your views and I know your goals. Your goals are reasonable. I simply disagree with your methods to achieve those goals. I never think it’s okay to “fight fire with fire” or take an “eye for an eye” approach. If one of my two youngest boys hits the other and their response is “he hit me first”, my response will be ” I don’t care who threw the first punch. Hitting is wrong.” I tell them to use their words and not resort to fighting. It doesn’t always work, but at least they are forced to at least make attempts to resolve differences peacefully. Getting back at someone to right a past wrong is not the answer. Revenge may sound good but it’s not.

            Again, I am finished with political discussion. This is done now. I know where you are coming from and you know where I am coming from. Now we can move on. I’m walking away from this and I won’t respond to this further. Have a nice rest of your day. Take care.

            Liked by 2 people

            Comment by Ben — July 8, 2018 @ 08:52

  7. Scottie, I’m not trying to re-ignite a conflict here. I only just discovered this thread and it prompted a few thoughts. Ben and Tracy said they were done with the discussion and I take them at their word. If you want to delete this comment as being provocative or whatever, I won’t be offended.

    The Republican party has consistently campaigned on, and tried to implement, policies such as taking away women’s right to abortion, denying gay people the right to marry and laws protecting them from discrimination, and making the US a “Christian nation” in ways that would de facto make non-Christians second-class citizens in our own country. It’s simply not possible for an even slightly informed person to be unaware of these things. If somebody simply ignores all that and votes Republican based on economic policy or whatever, they still demonstrate that they are OK with those other policies — that they’re willing to sacrifice the freedom and rights of gay people, atheists, and others as acceptable collateral damage. At that, we have every right to be angry.

    As to “fighting fire with fire”, in my view we have no obligation to remain passive or genteel in the face of a political movement which is viciously attacking us, as the conservative movement is. There are good reasons why this conflict is called the culture <i.war, not the culture debate. As Malcolm X said, “I’m not going to turn the other cheek when some cracker is busting me in the jaw.” There is no moral equivalence between the persecutors and the persecuted (I’m taking about the right wing generally here, not the individuals in the comments above).

    I believe your feelings are justified. Obviously it is best not to let anger get the better of us in personal discussions with individuals, but you wouldn’t be human if you didn’t feel pushed to the limit sometimes, given the current situation in the country. I’ve felt the same way sometimes.

    I’ve read some of the posts on Ben’s old blog which document his gradual evolution from Christian to atheist. It was a step-by-step process of changing beliefs as greater knowledge made them untenable, and I have to say it showed more intellectual honesty than most people seem capable of when considering such questions. If I remember correctly, he only reached complete abandonment of religion a few months ago. I suspect his views, including political ones, will continue to evolve in the future. Mine have certainly changed over time.

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by Infidel753 — July 8, 2018 @ 14:15

    • Hello Infidel753. I try never to delete a legitimate comment on a subject if I can keep for doing so. Your comment is on topic and in fact I agree with you. You managed to say in so few words what I seemed to take pages to say and never seemed to get my points across. Thank you.

      First what got me upset with Tracy was the comment that seemed to imply she did not care what was true or not and or how I felt but would just make her comment saying I was wrong regardless. Ben says I misunderstood her and I accept what he says as he has no reason to lie and knows her better than I. That was why I got angry. As for my talk with Ben, he ended it, not me. I think the problem for them is they were fundamentalist christians and so came from a mindset they have had to shed. That takes steps and time from what I have been told by other people. They still see a world they as they would prefer it to be. That is not really true today. I could be wrong but that is what I think was the issue. Thanks again for a great summary of the comments. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — July 8, 2018 @ 14:33


RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Blog at WordPress.com.

%d bloggers like this: