Scotties Toy Box

November 10, 2018

A guide

Filed under: Atheism, History, Memes, News, Questions, Reason, Religion — Scottie @ 09:11

 

35 Comments »

  1. Eh, not a fan of the first meme. I get that he wrote “Hebrew Bible” so he can wiggle a bit and say he just meant the book, but it’s not really true that Jews hate women and non-Jews. It’s a stereotype that should be challenged!

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    Comment by consoledreader — November 10, 2018 @ 12:52

    • @ consoledreader, It doesn’t matter if he meant the Old Testament or the Torah, both are sexest and bigoted. It is not a stereotype what is in the books. Women with no rights, and who again were the chosen people the rest be damned. Not to mention violent and immoral. Hugs

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      Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 13:01

      • I’m not disagreeing that there are things in the books that would be considered sexist and bigoted by our standards today. What I am questioning is the implication that these are values that persist among the majority of people who call themselves Jewish or Christian to this day. It’s a stereotype and myth that Jews as a group dislike non-Jews or think of them as any worse or better than themselves.

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        Comment by consoledreader — November 10, 2018 @ 13:07

        • If they follow the book, if they claim that book is their holy book, they are responsible for what is in it.

          Look these people say their god is unchanging, all powerful and all knowing. He is the source of morals. Well if it is wrong today , it damn well was wrong then and their god knew it. Yet the inspired word of their god recorded the sexism, the bigotry, and the idea of religious superiority.

          Now if a person wants to denounce the abrahamic religious holy books and worship a deity nicer and more moral that is fine, but it is not the god of the Bible, the Quran, nor the Torah. You don’t get to pick and chose which parts of the book is OK now and which part god did not mean. That is starting a new religion.

          If that is what you are doing fine, great actually I like the new hip gods better than the vicious sour grapes pervert of the abrahamic religions. Then you get to say your god and your religion is not included in the meme. To save confusion though it would be better if you gave it a different name than one already taken such as Christianity.

          Be well. Hugs

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          Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 13:18

          • Sure, I could’ve interpreted the meme that way as not refering to me and mine, except anti-Semitism is real. One of the stereotypes that fuel it (among many others) is this misconception that Jews think non-Jews are inferior to them. The problem is in reality the vast majority of them don’t feel or think that way at all even at a religious level (for example, most Jews would say all human beings share equality in that they are made in the image of God)

            I can choose whatever ideas I want from the Torah and other books because I’m an individual and it’s a man-made book that reflects a living breathing culture. The culture behind it is what matters. For this same reason, I’m not bound to what my ancient ancestors thought, nor am I responsible for what they thought. Ideas transform over time, as they did via the Talmud, and the Haskalah (the Jewish Enlightenment), and later developments in history.

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            Comment by consoledreader — November 10, 2018 @ 14:38

            • Sorry I missed this comment until I found it in my mail. Sorry. Lets see.

              I guess we will disagree. The books that Jewish people claim holy do not grant the same current day rights and feelings you hold. Saying most Jew’s hold all people equal disregards the fact the books they referto do not.

              You say you can pick and chose what things you want to from the Torah as you are an individual. Fine I agree. But then you can not say you are following the Torah as a guide for your life and you are not following the god of the Torah. Again I disagree with your idea you just choose from column a and add to it column B and or C. This is not a Chinese restaurant menu. I can not say I support the confederate states right to secede from the union, yet I don’t’ support their idea of slavery, because their demand to keep slavery is why they tried to secede.

              Enlightenment or not if they did not change the book it is based on, they are the same as the book they are getting their idea of what their deity wants from. If they change the book fine. Scientology changed the book goes by a different book, and do not claim to be christians. Mormons changed the book, I disagree that they should be called christians but they do not go by the bible, they changed the book. If were to add the book of Mormon to the list we would have a few things they are responsible to. On that note , they feel the bible is second to the book of mormon. Same with scientologist they feel that Ron Hubbard’s is their bible. If that was on the list, then they would be held to that book.

              The point is if you claim your faith is based on that book, then the things in the book are held against you. OR don’t claim the book, start a different religion. Like the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

              But you can not say the three books listed do not have the things accused of them in them. Hugs

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              Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 17:17

              • I would agree that maybe I am reading more into the memes words than I should or is fair.

                The books do in fact refer to this idea in in Genesis 1 in that God made Man in his Image. Yes, it’s an inference from trying to decide what that passage means, but it’s generally the normative interpretation.

                Another problem with the meme is it too is cherry picking.

                Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. – Exodus 23:9

                “When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.” – Leviticus 19:33-34.

                None of those sound particularly xenophobic to me. In fact, they are the opposite. Cherry picking works both ways. There are statements that can be interpreted as xenophobic and non-xenophobic that are objectively in the book.

                In terms of what I can choose from Torah or not, you’re misunderstanding. I said very clearly that I think it is a man-made book that is part of a living culture. In the same way, I can read Aristotle and think his “scientific” texts are bunk, but that some of his ideas about literature may be true or at least insightful. The point being once one accepts that it is a man-made text they can treat it like any other man-made text and glean what one finds insightful, useful, and personally moving.

                I am actually claiming cultures produce books and sometimes books then change the ideas of a culture, but there is a broader culture behind the book and cultures change over time and unsurprisingly so do what they understand from their books.

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by consoledreader — November 11, 2018 @ 08:47

                • Good Sunday morning Consoledreader. I hope your day is grand so far. In regards to the picking and choosing what one follows in a holy book, I addressed that. I said that was your right. I also said that if one does that one shouldn’t claim to be a follower of the book, and so to avoid confusion shouldn’t call themselves by the name the followers of the book do. It is simple courtesy. For example if you follow what you think are the nice Jesus parts of the new testament and just ignore the rest you shouldn’t call yourself a Christian.

                  I recently had a nice 15 year old Muslim girl tell me that as a gay man no Muslim would harm me because the Quran states no follower of Islam should harm others. She quoted me verses. Yet as I explained to her, the majority of Muslims believe the Quran said something different and acted on their views of their holy book.

                  I think the majority of the old testament clearly shows God siding with his “chosen” people and killing others.

                  The meme doesn’t go verse by verse through all the holy books mentioned. It covers the majority of what the books says should be done by its followers.

                  I am having trouble following you on the “Hebrew” book, as first I thought we were talking the Old Testament, and then we switched to the Torah, and now back to the Old Testament. As I mentioned above I know little of the Torah and will take your word for what is in it. However I do know a bit about the Old Testament and it is totally anti-female and God did play favorites with his chosen people.

                  I agree with you the books are all man made. However the followers of those books do feel they are holy books given by their gods. Again the Torah I have little knowledge of but I think even the majority of the rabbis think the things in the Old Testament are not real history.

                  The claim that cultures change is something I agree with, but it has nothing to do with the meme. The meme talks about the ideas on subjects in the books. Not the culture of today. Altho we both have to admit there is a large body of followers of the Abrahamic religions that are just as described in the meme. I say if you don’t want to follow something in the book you have two choices, either take it out of the book or do not claim to follow the book. Just cut out, get rid of it. Happens to the Bible all through history. IF you can’t change the book, then don’t claim to follow the book. Either one works.

                  The meme is on the books mentioned not the culture of today and not about non-followers of those books. Hugs

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                  Comment by Scottie — November 11, 2018 @ 09:45

                  • Torah is generally considered the five Books of Moses, but sometimes can refer to the whole corpus of Jewish teachings and ideas. Generally one can also call the Hebrew Bible the Tanakh, which for all intents and purposes is the Old Testament.

                    My comments about cultures changing is related to the areas in which our discussion has deviated from the original one.

                    As I pointed out there are more statements against the meme then you think. That wasn’t exactly an exhaustive list.

                    I also addressed that I don’t think you quite have a good grasp on the relationships people have with their books. I am not claiming that I think the book is the literal word of God, but rather I think it is a man-made book created by an earlier version of the modern day culture. People are Jewish because they belong to the culture, not because they follow the book. Although some follow the book albeit interpreted through the lens of the Talmud, another book. (Again this is comment relates to the areas of our discussion which have gone on tangent.)

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                    Comment by consoledreader — November 11, 2018 @ 10:19

                    • Consoledreader. I am not going to get into a discussion of what makes a person Jewish. I am not in charge of that either way. I have heard some people call themselves secular jews. I think it is silly, but it is because there has been a merger of religious and ethnic identities.

                      I know how people use the words in those books very well. The damn Old Testament has been used against me by religious people ( both the love the sinner hate the sin , and the fags die types ) The meme says the Hebrew book , which I am taking to mean the Old Testament, is anti -woman and pro-Jews. SImply put I agree. There is no way to say the Old Testament is pro-female and anti-Jews. As this is about what is in the books, the meme is not in error.

                      You have wanted to discuss the meme from every side. I have done so. But the truth is the meme is not that complicated and you’re making it a rubik’s cube.
                      It really is not that deep a meme. There Is nothing hidden in it. It is not anti- semitic. It simply says the Old Testament is not pro-female and is not anti-jews. Or as the meme puts it, the Old Testament is anti-female and pro-jews.

                      Thanks. Have a wonderful sunday. Hugs

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                      Comment by Scottie — November 11, 2018 @ 11:05

                    • Yes, and I showed that the meme misconstrues some of what is actually in the book (by quoting a few verses that don’t fit with the memes statements) and cherrypicked things that don’t fit its statement and noted that historically such misrepresentations have been used to oppress me and mine.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by consoledreader — November 11, 2018 @ 12:08

                    • I disagree somewhat. That your people and others have been persecuted I do not doubt and I agree has happened. It is despicable. I do not agree with being anti-semitic. Which is not to say you cannot criticize actions of the Israeli government. Sometimes the two get lumped together which is false. I am against persecution against an ethnic group just as I am against persecution of sexuality.

                      I do not view the meme as anti-semitic. I view it as stating a fact about the Old Testament.

                      However you can not say the meme cherry picked a few verses and ignored all the massive amount of others that invalidated that.

                      Overall as a whole the Old Testament is anti-female and pro-jewish people.

                      Let’s take the issues one at a time. First females. There is no way under the sun you can claim that the O.T. is pro women. Even the little girls have no rights and can be take as property for sex. A female has no rights to her own body and is the property of the male. Heck she has to marry her rapist if he wants.

                      Second pro-Jewish. OK I know the names of the Jewish people changed a few times in the O.T. but it was clear which ones god favored and gave his blessing too and which ones he wanted his people to destroy. The whole point of the book was god made man, and that man had a lot of offspring which were god’s chosen people. At some point they were called Jews. You really can not claim the Jewish people were the hated people by god in the O.T. God often was given credit for their wins in battle and god commanded them to slaughter all the other nations and tribes.

                      That is all the meme is saying. You are creating something where it doesn’t exist. You are not being persecuted by this meme. You are not seeing anti-semitism in the meme other than what you are putting in there.

                      You want it to be something far greater than it is. You are making a whole conspiracy where none exist.

                      Hugs

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by Scottie — November 11, 2018 @ 12:31

                    • No I am saying the meme didn’t offer a balanced picture in that there are clearly verses in the Hebrew Bible that tell you not to hate non-Jews, but treat them equally. I agree with you that there are some nasty verses present too.

                      I am not necessarily saying the writer of the meme himself is anti-Semitic or even that the statement of the Bible is completely wrong, but rather I am wary of claims like his because historically people have used ideas like this, which I am pointing out isn’t the whole picture, to enact persecution.

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                      Comment by consoledreader — November 11, 2018 @ 13:00

                    • Consoledreader. If we are talking about the O.T. it is not balanced and in no way can you claim it is on these two subjects. If you are talking some other book we need to nail that down. I wish the meme writer had been clearer.

                      I’m not going to repeat what I have written several times and is as clear as I can make it. The O.T. as a whole is anti-female and pro-Jewish. That is what the meme is saying. To disagree with that is to say I am being anti semitic and anti jewish in what I am writing now. I am not and have never been!

                      I understand you being wary , but clearly you can not deny the O.T. is anti female and pro jewish people. That is the whole entire point of that part of the meme.

                      You are adding things into it because of your view point and because as you say you are wary of the attempt to use it as prosecution of your ethnic group. But heck that not happening here. This is like using the Harry Potter books to persecute English people.

                      You even admit you are not saying the statement is not wrong. End it there. You are really forcing a ten pound amount into a one pound sack.

                      I get your point, your people have historically been persecuted, OK so have mine. But I am not throwing that in on a meme that doesn’t include it.

                      Again you are adding things not there, but are only in your perception of it. You are creating a mountain where there is only a flat plain.

                      And if we can not agree on this then we should end it and just agree to disagree.

                      I wish you the best but I strongly disagree with your assessment of the meme.

                      Hugs

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                      Comment by Scottie — November 11, 2018 @ 13:41

                    • I also think we’re reaching a point in the conversation where we’re just circling around the points we’ve already made a few times and nothing fruitful will come from continuing.

                      Since it’s your blog, if you have something more to say or add last word is yours if you want it.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by consoledreader — November 11, 2018 @ 13:33

                    • Consoledreader. I have said what I can think of to say. I can not see what we have not covered or how it could be clearer on our views. I am not angry or against you. I have expressed sympathy for the attacks historically on the ethnic Jewish people. I would hope all people stand with each other when genocide is happening. I want the world to start preventing the wholesale slauther of LGBTQ around the world, including the part of the world of the middle east. There Is a lot of room to work in this area.

                      However again I can not help but see you are adding things to a simple 6 word line that are simply not there. Sorry.

                      You are welcome here and as everyone is you are welcome to leave your thoughts and discussions in comments. I do to stop comments because they disagree, I only stop them when they become abusive.

                      We have had a good talk, and I am happy with it. I encourage discussions. But as you say I think we have run this one pretty much out and the rest is fumes. I hope you comment again. Hugs

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                      Comment by Scottie — November 11, 2018 @ 13:54

            • I think they idea comes down to you say your not responsible for what they thought or did. Yes true, unless you claim that book as your guide to life. Then you are hanging your hat on that hook of that book. I am not responsible for anything in the Grimms Tales, unless I make it the thing I use to guild all my life. IF someone says well burning witches and eating little kids is wrong I can not say well ya but the other stuff is good, just read around the bad stuff. I think if you say you base your life on the bible you have to own what it says, same with the Torah and the same with the Quran. Or you simply are picking and choosing what you like and the book simply means nothing anymore. Hugs

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              Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 17:24

              • “… eating little kids is wrong…” Really?! Damn it! Now I gotta change my ways!

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by inspiredbythedivine1 — November 10, 2018 @ 17:40

                • No, if you followed the conversation it depends if you follow religion based on a book that says it is wrong. As I understand it you do not follow any such book, so I would have to defer that to another time. Eat away good sir.

                  About Eating. We picked up a new chili mix. I then made it my way without reading the instructions. Glad I did. The stuff was strong and smokey and I made a triple amount than they called for. Think how strong it would have been had I made it with only the amount they said. I wouldn’t be able to feel my tongue. Hugs

                  Liked by 1 person

                  Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 17:44

                  • I’ve been following along here. Good, interesting conversation.

                    Liked by 1 person

                    Comment by inspiredbythedivine1 — November 10, 2018 @ 18:24

                    • I think we are talking past each other. I and the meme are talking about what is in the book. Consoledreader is talking anti Semitism. Not what the meme was about. Hugs

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                      Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 18:34

                    • Oh, I can see that, but I still find your points to be very good.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by inspiredbythedivine1 — November 10, 2018 @ 18:41

          • I’m not trying to start a long-winded internet argument with you since I generally do like you. I acknowledged already that “I get that he wrote “Hebrew Bible” so he can wiggle a bit and say he just meant the book” in my first post. I’m just trying to point out that it’s very easy to conflate people with books and not understand how they conceive or think about their own books and that this historically has had negative consequences, and we shouldn’t ignore that either.

            Liked by 1 person

            Comment by consoledreader — November 10, 2018 @ 15:10

            • @consoledreader. I am back in my office, Ron took pity on me and took over making the chili. This is not an argument as I see it, if it comes across to you I am sorry I am not wording it better, but to me it seems you are being obtuse and trying to force a point that is not there. I have tried to respond to each point you raised. You say you mentioned the “hebrew book” and you did , did you miss he listed “New Testament” and also “Quran”. Clearly he is talking about what is written in the book.

              To your second point on conflating people with the book I addressed this also. Just as I do not care why a person claims to support tRump, but if they do they are as bad as him, they share his racism, his lack of morals, his lying, his narcissism. Lets try this example. I may not own slaves but if I support slavery , I am just as bad as those who do. I feel the same about the books we are talking about.

              Now I have addressed the point of a person saying they support the nice wonderful things Jesus is said to have supported and said. OK, you want to follow Jesus without the rest of the book, which he claimed to support and not “…take one jot or iota away from the law” that is great, have at it. But be honest enough to say you are not following the Bible , new or old testament. You are creating a nice new religion with a deity you like and chose. Which is how all religions got started. So you are and those like you, are simply following the same traditions of creating your own god.

              Lastly I disagree we need see how other people see their own books. If they are written in a language we can understand, and they say something , we can understand what they say and mean. If the followers say yes it says kill all the children but they meant give them bad dreams we can totally call BS on it.

              You seem to have a religious view you like that fits you. Grand, have at it. But you have to admit the books of the abrahamic religion are not redeemable and are all the meme has said. Hugs

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              Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 15:36

        • @ consoledreader , I think you are missing the meme’s point. It is talking about what is in the holy books. Notice when you read the meme it lists the books. Hugs

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          Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 13:23

    • And while we’re at it, do most Christians really hate most Jews or women as well?

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      Comment by consoledreader — November 10, 2018 @ 13:02

      • @ consoledreader. Oh yes I would say if they follow the holy books of their religion. The books clearly call for the second class treatment of females, they must be subservient to men. Stay silent and obey. As to christians hating Jews, the christians think Jews are going to hell , and remember it takes the destruction of Jerusalem to start the second coming of Christ. Listen or read any fundy preacher and they are virulent about Jewish people. Heck one of the atheist sites I go to posted a few days back about one of the media preachers who claimed that Jews won’t be saved until everyone in Israel bends knee to christ and proclaims him lord. Hugs

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        Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 13:08

  2. But I wouldn’t forgive this murdewrous brown shit, and if god does, he is a NAZI. Nobody is supposed – or do I better have to say – is allowed-to forgive this millionfold murderer.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by miles — November 10, 2018 @ 13:33

    • I understand Miles. You have more reason than most to dispise Nazi’s. I think they people who created these gods were afraid they wouldn’t be forgiven the horrible things they to did if they did not have a god who would forgive the most horrible stuff. Be well. Hugs

      Like

      Comment by Scottie — November 10, 2018 @ 13:51

  3. And once again there are 99 different Bible writers one of them is eve.n a woman: maria Magdalena — who was Jesus’s wife, hehad a daughter with named Sarah. And you biblebelievers talk about one bible??? How stupid

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by miles — November 10, 2018 @ 13:45

  4. Love these.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by inspiredbythedivine1 — November 10, 2018 @ 17:21


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