Scotties Toy Box

I have been having a discussion with Dylan.   A week ago he sent me a reply and I think the conversation is important enough to have a post of its own.  I hope others will join in.  Hugs

Hello Scottie,

It seems everything we disagree about, at least economically, deals with your hatred for the American capitalist system, at least that is the base of most of your arguments. You noted at the end of your second paragraph, “If so as a system, it sucks.” I certainly don’t perceive that the capitalist system “sucks”, It is a societal component that has contributed much to making the west great. It certainly has garnered more evidence over the years concerning it’s effectiveness in generating and promoting wealth than any other economic practices.

You use the “demonization” argument quite often, in your latest reply, it goes something like ; “SO you would agree to let people die who could be saved because a wealthy person have the ability to outbid a town or hospital for needed testing???” Now just imagine if we applied this type of reasoning to every possible scenario. You start the argument by recognizing an actual scenario in which inequality can be perceived, then you locate someone (this would be me “Dylan” in your argument) who doesn’t think that that scenario is a situation of inequality, then you demonize that person (me) as being something akin to “evil” itself because they don’t recognize the scenario as being one of inequality. Progressives and people on the political left do this a lot. I will give you an example, for instance they talk about our healthcare system like this, “oh you don’t like Medicare-for-all? Well that’s just because you don’t care about all those people that die from lack of good healthcare with the current system!” Here’s another one, “Oh, your not Pro-choice? Well that’s just because your a misogynistic man who doesn’t want women to be able to do what they want with their own bodies!” Are you familiar with this type of argument Scottie? It’s very popular on the political left, and I’m beginning to loathe discussing political topics within this popular “demonization arguments” framework. It makes actual “reasoning” difficult to get to.

So here is my opinion on this particular story concerning this private Island in Florida, whose opulent inhabitants purchased expensive Covid-19 tests for themselves and their staff.

I don’t have a problem with it. Yes it is unfortunate that we don’t have a lot of testing right now, but what would you suggest doing about it? These people in Florida have the money to purchase tests, other people don’t, and maybe that’s not “FAIR”, but what else can be done without invading their rights? My main goal Scottie, is to advocate the preservation of our glorious capitalist system. I admit, many institutions have been corrupted by greed and power, and that has had a significant effect on the overall financial prosperity of this country, but it doesn’t mean we need tear it all down and start from ground zero again. This is what the revolutionary left is suggesting we need to do, tear down the capitalist system, and replace it with something similar to a social democracy of some sort. But they are extremely vague and unclear in explaining what force or method will drive this new society.

That’s all for today Scottie,

-health and prayers

Dylan,

Hello Dylan. I didn’t realize so many so days had gone by since you wrote this. The reason I wanted to take some time was I needed to go back over the stuff I have written to you to see how I could have been so unclear that you would have such an incorrect impression of my views. I try very hard to be clear and factual in my replies. I have repeatedly told you that uncontrolled capitalism eventually destroys itself, which is clear in history, while controlled capitalism creates socialites that work for everyone. I have told you I am a Social Democrat and I gave you the definition of that and also examples of what countries that applies to. All those countries have a capitalist system. I told you the US was a Social Democracy with controls on capitalism, it is just the restraints have been eroded and torn down. I have used facts and figures to show how better it was in this country for everyone, for the economy, when capitalism was restrained. People still got wealthy, very wealthy, it was just more people did so, not just a few. I have shown how these other countries using controlled capitalism are able to do so much more for everyone than the US. I hope I had shown you that from the 1950’s to the 1980’s were some of the best economic times for this country, and that since then the hard push to drive all the wealthy to the top few has destroyed much of the promise and gains the country made.

So I was really concerned that you could have gotten such a wrong impression. To some it wouldn’t matter but it does to me. Then I realized that the tactic to claim that someone who has a different idea, that doesn’t support the far right ideals is hating the country or hating the thing the far right supports, is something a lot of the far right opinion hosts and media creators use. People like Ben Shapiro use it all the time. It is a cheap and easy way to push someones buttons. You want to change something so you must hate it. You then hate the country. It was used after 911 to justify a first strike war against a country that did not attack us, voiding a long standing policy our country had of never striking first. It was a disaster but any talk to temper those angry fires was accused of hatting the US and loving the terrorist. It is a dishonest tactic used when a persons arguments are weak. Someone who loves a country doesn’t turn a blind eye to its problems and its mistakes, they try their best to fix them.

So if you think I hate capitalism you are misinformed and may want to go back and read what I have written. Yes I said ” If so as a system, it sucks.” But lets see what I was saying sucks.

 How much value for human life does it take to realize that you do not let people who are not at risk, not threatened by the disease, plus not showing symptoms take a rare resource such as these covid-19 tests over people who need them because they show symptoms and need to know if they have it to go back to work saving lives? Really do you want the savings of lives to stop because some wealthy person is worried the maid who should be staying home but her employer is insist she come in so they don’t have to make their own bed, will have something that they don’t want to infect them. Is this the position you are fighting for? Is this the best unrestrained capitalism can do?

What system was I saying sucked? I was talking human life and letting it be lost due to selfishness supported by greed. I was talking about people not caring about the many who will die, the many sacrificing to save so many, the families of these people, all so they could get their domestic help and comforts back. Yes Dylan to me that sucks big time.

 I certainly don’t perceive that the capitalist system “sucks”, It is a societal component that has contributed much to making the west great. It certainly has garnered more evidence over the years concerning it’s effectiveness in generating and promoting wealth than any other economic practices.

Yes Dylan but as I have shown it has been controlled capitalism that has done that. The more uncontrolled, the more banana republic a country gets, the more it destroys a country and the economy. By the way it is not just the west that has capitalistic systems, China was until recently surpassing the rest of the world in controlled capitalist growth. You should look up the silk road and it will worry the pants off you. China seen the decline in the US participation and engagement of the countries of the world and rushed in to fill the void. Now they listen to China much more than the US.

Dylan. I do set up examples and comparisons to show different modes of actions and response. In these examples there are inherent values assigned. What action or choice you choose, what system you prefer does show what you value. Where your value system places you on a spectrum, a graph. If you’re views, beliefs, actions, your value placement on the graph makes you think you are evil, I suggest changing your views. You talk of liberals setting up situations that demonize you then you should be able to give a reasonable rebuttable to why that is not true. If you can not so convincingly, then check out your value system and compare it to your beliefs.

You talk of reasoning but being unable to convince others you are correct doesn’t make them demonizing you, it means you have not proven your case. In some cases it means they have not proven theirs or are unwilling to listen. You claim this is a liberal problem but it is really one on all sides and parties. I have had many discussions with very unreasonable people on the right, Christians, pro forced birth, anti-vaxers, and other things where no matter what was presented they stuck to debunked incorrect ideas or denied facts. Out right denying reality and science was more important to them than trying to really think on why they held their views. If someone says 2+2=5 and you show them in every way possible it doesn’t and they wont accept it, are you demonizing them?

Is there a moral responsibility to help others? It is legal in many states to not render aid, assistance , or summon help. And it stunned me to learn how many people simply don’t care about other humans suffering. Using the argument that it is right to care about and help those others, doesn’t it follow that the government of the people for the people would use its authorities and abilities along with its monies to do so? I admit I think it should. It is us people caring for the rest of us. The way the country was to be, a country run by the people for the good of the people, not for the benefit of the super wealthy. Tell me what is morally correct about letting the majority, the 80% of a country suffer so the other 20% have it OK and the top 1% live lives of unbelievable luxury?

Lastly Dylan. You talk of the glorious capitalist system with out any history or context to back it up. You’re 16 and have no experience living on your own nor the life experiences of anything not in the last 16 years. There was a time before Roger Ailes and Fox News. There was a time when Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk to name just a few were not paid by very wealthy people to shill for the right to be greedy. I remember those times. Liberal is not an insult and it means we care about people enough to do something to help them. I remember the systems in place when I was a young man and what I was able to do on the money then compared to the money today. When I tell you the system is broken it is because I lived when it was better.

Dylan please branch out from the far right opinion media and realize no one is talking tearing the system down and starting from some mythical point zero. Here you are doing the very demonizing you claim to hate. The idea is to tweak the system to take it back to when it worked for everyone, not just a few. It has gotten skewed and out of wack and needs to be adjusted. Again that is simply a fact of history. There is nothing vague, the plans are well documented, the bills in congress are able to be read. It is this drive to make helping people seem unpatriotic, seem like it is destroying the great nation. It is silly and completely untrue. I have shown you the status and the way that Social Democracies all over the world have made things better for their people while still having many wealthy people. You talk of Social Democracy as if it was something foreign to the US, but I have already shown you the US is and always has been a one, just that it is now in badly needed repair. One example of the US Social Democracy is the interstate highway system, a crown jewel for the country for many years until it was underfunded to give tax breaks to the wealthy. Now bridges are unsafe, and roads crumbling. Is that making the country better?

Dylan thank you for your conversation. I appreciate your thoughts on the subjects we talk about and I thank you for including how you view things. I am going to both send this as a reply but also make a post of it as I think our conversation is important and may hopefully draw in other people and their ideas. Be well and talk with you soon.  Hugs